I am on a campaign to get the world outside Japan to start spelling ramen as lamen, it’s correct spelling, and to get people to say the word as “la men” it’s correct way, not the Japanese mistake of RAMEN. Since the Japanese do not have a R sound or R letter in their culture, they mistakingly changed the word they took from the Chinese in China and HK and Taiwan and turned it, incorrectly I might add, into RAMEN. No way. It’s lamen, always was and always will be.

So how to get the world to wake up and say the word and spell it correctly.
In English. In nihongo, it’s fine, in katakana hiragana, fine. But not in English: ramen is wrong wrong wrong. We don’t spell LOVE as ROVE, we don’t spell LUCK as RUCK and we don’t spell Linda and Rinda, do we? So we should change ramen back to the correct way. The Japanese made a collosal mistake. it’s not too late to change it in English.

Anyone want to help with this humorous yet serious quixotic crusade? It’s not anti-Japanese. I love Japan. Been there 5 years. love to eat “ramen” there. But in NYC and LA it should be spelled Lamen and called Lamen.

email me for help offers:

.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

I am serious. Maybe Richmond can help me too. A very wrong wrong needs to be righted. For history’s sake.

Good luck with your campaign, but for some reason (IMHO) I don’t think “lameniac” looks or sounds as good as “rameniac”.

keizo - 17 July 2008 08:48 AM

Good luck with your campaign, but for some reason (IMHO) I don’t think “lameniac” looks or sounds as good as “rameniac”.

You are so right. Lameniac does not have the same RING to it. Sure. BUT if the word is wrong, it is wrong. RAMEN is a Japanese faux pas. It is a mistake. What if the Japanese spelled Lolita as Rorita, what would we say?
What if they spelled Language as Ranguage? What if they spelled Love as Rove? Would we do nothing? Would we protest? Would be try to correct the wrongs? Sure we would. So all lamen lovers need to support this grobaru campaign to ask the Japanese ministry of spelling to please change the way they spell LAMEN in English. They made a huge mistake. It seems like an impossible task to correct this, I agree. Let’s see what Richmond says later.

I mean, what’s wrong is wrong. Shouldn’t we speak up? It might take 10 years of constant PR work, but it can be done.

But I see your point, newbie. This is a a quixotic quest of lameniac proportions. still, I won’t give you until we win.

Imagine if Japan spelled Lasagna as RASAGNA, would we remain silent? No!

by the way, Richmond and others, here is a great video audio of the old chamurera flute that played the old do re me re do song as the lamen tlucks lode down the streets of japan long ago

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=P1HJLX223q8

know the style guides and menus and signs all say “ramen” but in fact, the food is actually called LAMEN in Chinese AND Japanese, always was and always will be, but the Japanese, who so popularized the dish worldwide, made a huge mistake by transcribing the word LAMEN as “ramen.”

Why did they do this? Because in the Japanese syllaby that writes the word LAMEN in katakana, there is no L sound, no L letter, so they only had the R letter and R sound to use for the word, which they took directly from the Chinese, who DO spell it and pronounce it correctly.

So just as London is not spelled Rondon in English, but is pronounced that way in Japanese, shouldn’t LAMEN be rescued from its faux pas heritage and be spelled with an L and pronounced as “LA-MEN”, which is the correct way, after all?

I know AP and UPI and Reuters and the NYTimes and the WAPO disagree, but they are wrong. In this case, LAMEN is the correct spelling in English. Or should be. Ask any Japanese person.

Question is: how to right this wrong?

an EMAIL from a veteran language man, a reporter/editor in NYC:

Dear Tampopo,

What a GREAT question you raise here!

I suspect—but have no reason to know—that this happened a lot with other transliterations as well.

You may have to concede this one, though.

Every English dictionary I can find—including the venerable Oxford English Dictionary—accept “ramen” with no qualifications.

Only Random House Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary lists an alternate spelling, and it won’t make you happy, either: “Also called larmen.”

(There, is however, a restaurant in Greenwich Village called Tokyo Lamen.)

When the horse is that far out of the barn, there’s no going back.”

[TAMPOPO ADDS: But this editor also said that maybe this lamen/ramen brouhaha is worth discussing, if only to see where it leads…. Yes, let’s see where this discussion leads. Chances of getting the English speaking world to change the spelling of RAMEN to the correct LAMEN are slim, very slim, quixotically slim, impossibly slim, slin as a LAMEN noodle, but hey, let’s try. That’s what language is all about: trying to set things right!]

lol tampopo it’s nice to see such a spirited series of posts in here. to be honest, i’m not sure how i feel on the matter. i think the japanese “ら” actually falls between the “r” and the “l” sound, so i could go either way with it. katakanized words fall on either side, and japanese people confuse the two all the time in speaking/writing english. take “ramune” for example, which comes from “lemonade.”

but… *ahem* who’s richmond? =)

Dear Ahem Admin Nastrator!

yes yes, you are right. the katakana is between a rock and a hard place, that is to say, between the Western R sound and the L sound, as in remondade, rondon, rorita, etc.

I once knew an American married to a Japanese women named Ryoko, and he called her in English “Dyoko” to me because he thought her L sound for Lyoko was like a D, so he actually THOUGHT his wife’s named was DYOKO.
Go figure.

yes yes, this is a tough battle. just for fun. But RAMEN is wrong. the R is the incorrect transliteration. WHY? because we know from the original Chinese word, it is an L sound, which the Chinese CAN say, and it’s LAMEN all over Taiwan and China and Hong Kong. Sorry Japan, you goofed.

Now how to right this wrong? I dunno. But discussions here and elsewhere are good. It will take 50 years to change it. But it will happen.

RAMEN is on the wrong side of history. LAMEN is the correct term

Even my Japanese friends in Tokyo agree!

dear admin again

yes for writing the RA is okay in katakana it’s their language. sure. and how they pronounce it in Japan, between the R and L sound, that is also okay since it is their language. But to spell it in English, NOT THEIR LANGUAGE, it should be spelled correctly, and LAMEN is the only correct way. I do not however want you to change this blogsite to LAMENIAC, well, not yet anyway. SMILE

raining here, Taifoon. 1000 mm of rain in one day. OUCH

An American expat in Tokyo, 30 years there, writes:

“The feeling I get is that Ramen is a Japanese word. I’ve eaten noodles galore in Taiwan, HKG and the China mainland, but never seen it referred to using the same characters. The “ra” is pronounced “la” in Chinese and is the same la as “pull” (the signs on doors) or laduzi (diarrhea). Ironically Chinese do understand “la mian,” but I think they recognize it as a Japanese dish. I don’t claim to be an authority, but that’s the best I can do.”

BTW, my friends in Paris tell me that in French it’s spelled LAMEN and pronounced LA-MEN. The USA is wrong wrong wrong.

Not to start a flamewar here, but…

tampopo - 18 July 2008 12:18 AM

the food is actually called LAMEN in Chinese

Actually, in Mandarin Chinese it’s more like La Mien.

AND Japanese

Saying it’s “lamen” in Japanese suggests that you feel the sound is closer to “l” than “r”.  But whether it is or is not has no bearing on the debate at hand.  It is the convention of the transliteration system (the name of which I can’t remember) to use the letter R.  Just like how Pinyin uses the letter Q for the “ch” sound.  It is merely a representation, and does not have any significant phonetic relation to how we use the letter “R” in English.

Also, the fact that it’s an L sound in Chinese doesn’t mean we should spell the Japanese dish with an L.  Regardless of the origin of the dish, what we’re talking about when we say “ramen” is still a Japanese dish.  You might as well say we’re not allowed to call the Chinese characters Kanji even when talking about the Japanese written language, because they’re originally called Han Zi (or however you want to transliterate it) in Mandarin.  Sticking to the terminology/pronunciation* of the culture we are talking about leaves no room for misunderstanding.

*or as close as the typical American butchering/bastardization will allow

So just as London is not spelled Rondon in English

That is a poor analogy.  Perhaps if London was conquered by the Japanese, destroyed, and relocated/rebuilt in Japan, populated mostly by Japanese and bore only a slight resemblance to the original city, then maybe it might work.

shouldn’t LAMEN be rescued from its faux pas heritage and be spelled with an L and pronounced as “LA-MEN”, which is the correct way, after all?

No, because it is only correct when referring to a Chinese dish.  Japanese ramen is no longer the same thing.

BTW, my friends in Paris tell me that in French it’s spelled LAMEN and pronounced LA-MEN.

I think that probably has more to do with the phonology of the French language, and nothing to do with your reasoning for wanting to spell ramen with an L.  But I don’t speak French, so I could be wrong.

BTW, do you think “chashu” should be spelled “tsasao” too?  That was also originally a Chinese term, though the two foods are nothing alike, aside from both being made from pig.

I’m more curious as to why Ramen, even when written in Hiragana, uses the line instead of あ.  And why it’s usually written in Katakana, when the Japanese tend not to write other words borrowed from Chinese in Katakana.  And why Santouka’s signage is written right to left.

JC
thanks for your good reasoned comments. no flame war at all, this is what i was looking for, reasoned discussion. you bring up good, valid points

THANKS

you are right, the R is okay for spelling under the Japanese Hepburn system or whatever it is…..GOOGLE….and inside Japan “ramen” is the way to spell it. But outside Japan, I just think we should honor the dish as lamen, it’s true name, okay, la mien…..and you know LA in Chinese means PULLED , so they are pulled noodles, maybe you say men pulling the noodles in a shop window? it’s cool.

anyway, thanks. i will pass on your good comments to my professor friends in NYC and Tokyo who are researching this….

lamen ramen, schlamen, schramen. A Yiddish joke!

[quote=“trimtofit”]Yes, I share your desire for correctness. But I think “ramen” has become established in the lexicon, and uprooting it might take more work than it’s worth. However, we might appeal to our favorite noodle shops to use the “L-word” to differentiate the tasty authentic stuff from the cellophane-wrapped crap you can buy for 15 cents at any grocery store… just a thought.

I agree, ramen is already set in print ,  hard to change the habit of using the R….but your idea of fave noodle shops using the L word to differentiate from the grocery crap, that is a brilliant marketing and very good idea. I love it. I will pass this on to my sources.

great idea. yes.

danny

like that TOKYO LAMEN shop in NYC….the sign says LAMEN…..that could be a good way to say WE ARE REAL RAMEN, not FAKE RAMEN…..wow….i am going to post this at rameniac.com forum giving credit to you,t hanks

db

If you are so intent on spelling Ramen with an L, you should also stop using the exonym “Japan”...just a thought.

keizo - 03 August 2008 07:13 PM

If you are so intent on spelling Ramen with an L, you should also stop using the exonym “Japan”...just a thought.

hi Keizo,I am not so INTENT in spelling ramen with an L, i just want to see what other people think, first. Just curious. asking around.

as for not using the exonym JAPAN, what other word would you suggest? I am all ears…

Tampopo